Posts by Shining One

7

"Trampled upon by the Juggernaut of Christian Dogma and Guilt."

by scout575 in

"many of them believe that we weren't "genuine" converts, that our profession was somehow narrow and insincere, that we weren't "really saved" and thats why our faith did not persist.

but if my conversion was insincere, then i can't fathom what sincere conversion is.. see if this sounds familiar: i was converted when i came to believe i was a sinner separated from god, who could not pay the debt of my own sin, and that christ had come to die in my place on the cross, to restore me to god.

when the realization of this hit me, it was like i'd been hit in the head by a bolt of lightning.

Shining One

>That you for putting it so succiently.

You're welcome, Perry

7

"Trampled upon by the Juggernaut of Christian Dogma and Guilt."

by scout575 in

"many of them believe that we weren't "genuine" converts, that our profession was somehow narrow and insincere, that we weren't "really saved" and thats why our faith did not persist.

but if my conversion was insincere, then i can't fathom what sincere conversion is.. see if this sounds familiar: i was converted when i came to believe i was a sinner separated from god, who could not pay the debt of my own sin, and that christ had come to die in my place on the cross, to restore me to god.

when the realization of this hit me, it was like i'd been hit in the head by a bolt of lightning.

Shining One

A Christian is measured by the fruits that they display as are the unconverted.
>Does that mean that a christian without the fruits would be lost? Does it mean that the unconverted that do have the fruits are saved?
James and Paul both teach that faith without works is dead. John teaches in his epistles that the very evidence of our faith is that fruit. Check out Eph. 2:8-10 and read James and John 1 & 2. They are not very long so it will not take much time. Study them and read carefully.
Rex

7

"Trampled upon by the Juggernaut of Christian Dogma and Guilt."

by scout575 in

"many of them believe that we weren't "genuine" converts, that our profession was somehow narrow and insincere, that we weren't "really saved" and thats why our faith did not persist.

but if my conversion was insincere, then i can't fathom what sincere conversion is.. see if this sounds familiar: i was converted when i came to believe i was a sinner separated from god, who could not pay the debt of my own sin, and that christ had come to die in my place on the cross, to restore me to god.

when the realization of this hit me, it was like i'd been hit in the head by a bolt of lightning.

Shining One

Hi Derek,
>And quite rightly. Without physical evidence - the only real kind of evidence - there is no reason to believe.
You readily accept the same in your own world-view. Many of the tenets of natualism are not observable, falsifiable nor predictable. What is the process that causes the brain to decipher sight, sound, touch, etc and even worse, how is it that we are able to think? Yet this occurs and we see the proof right here!
>3) They want to 'cross all the t's' and 'dot all of the I's' and explain the mysteries of Christianity.
Indeed. They want to make sure they're not being taken in by some vague mystical nonsense.
See the above....
4) It's also my guess that they have become entangled in a legalistic church of some type. All of the above are traits that we acquire through the Watchtower's conditioning. It seems they haven't become entangled, precisely because of their requirement for reason.
>When they say 'dogma' that means they do not believe the Bible in the first place.
You have your opinion and I mine....
>Nobody should believe anything "in the first place". Beliefs should be based on evidence.
That was not the implication and you full well know it.
>When they say 'guilt' that tells me that they struggle with some sin in their lives that has frustrated them.
>Really? It tells me they were involved with a belief system that made them feel guilty.
What belief system that is benefical for mankind doesn't? Where do moral come from in the first place?
That's too bad. If they did have a genuine conversion then they will be back in some sort of Chrsitian church. Security is eternal and we are not held by our own hand but God's. When we acquire faith, even that comes from God.
>How can you tell that that is the case.?
By the context of scripture in it's entirety.
>We have no special characteristics nor are Christians better than anyone else.
Agreed!
We all struggle and in many ways the Christian life is tough to live right, but a true blessing when we see the power of the Christ conquering what we could not.
>These blessings you see, can others see them too? Do you have - dare I ask - evidence?
Sure I do: the changes that occur in individuals; answered prayer; spiritual maturity that is gained by the personal relationship with the One who created us and died for our sins, giving us a solid hope that is a promise; of heavenly life for our immortal souls.
There are a lot of weird churches out there, there are a lot of false teachers. Most of what we would call Christianity is not that at all. In churches there are an average of 60-70% unconverted. Many have gotten what I call, "fire insurance", which is not a valid conversion at all. A Christian is measured by the fruits that they display as are the unconverted.
>The fruits they display that can be measured. That sounds like potential evidence to me. If there's measurable fruitage then you won't need mysticism to convince me, just show me the fruits you have measured.
Then go ahead and test my assertions. Get involved with a Bible-believing church and see the fruits for yourself. I do not recommend a church that teaches against the nature of God, i'e' modalism or oneness. Nor do I recommend a pentacostal, because it is so 'experiental and emotional'. Those who are used to what we came from do not handle the charismatic groups very well. A lot of it is carnal and possibly cultic so be careful. I wish you well in your spiritual journey. Surely you don't find the answers that you need in life through materialism!
Do not seek to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. St. Augustine
Rex

80

The real impact of "apostate" sites

by dozy in

in a recent discussion with a couple of district overseers and other heavies , the topic of the internet and apostate sites came up.

i asked what impact these were making , numerically , among jws.

the prevailing view was that , numerically , there was negligible impact.

Shining One

There is another factor when one looks at why the ratio hasn't changed. I believe that is very clearly evident here: There is a utter disrespect and outright hostile attitude toward people who take their faith seriously, whether it is cultic JW faith or Christian. Not only that, but the very ones who chastise Christians for intolerance are very intolerant of the above.
JWs take a glance at some of the titles of the posts and run screaming from here. If they dig a little deeper they find this is the norm. The Watchtower always warns them that 'apostates hate God, the Bible and just want to shipwreck the faith of Christians."
So many of us 'apostates' are just exactly what they have been warned about. It is one thing to lose faith in a cult, it is another to have one's faith in God also at stake.
Rex

20

Scriptures You Will Not Hear at the 23-07-06 Church Sermon

by scout575 in

"then that slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line with his will will be beaten with many strokes.

but the one that did not understand and so did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few.

" ( luke 12:47,48 ).

Shining One

>Although the NT condemns and prohibits many things, nowhere does it condemn or prohibit the buying, owning and selling of slaves. What a shame.

The N.T. was never mean't cure civilization's social ills. The focus was and is on personal salvation. THAT is what cures the social ills!
Rex

6

"A Victim of the Delusion"

by scout575 in

"i regard most church leaders however as simply the victims of the christian delusion.

i believe the delusion comandeers the leaders' rational faculties and shields itself from the light of reason.

i regard myself as formerly a victim of the delusion, and i regard you as still a victim of the delusion.

Shining One

You guys want delusion? You really do need to look at both sides of the issue. Where you spend eternity could be in the balance! Have a nice day!
Rex

# If you want to impress people with how good your science is, if you want to get tenure in a modern university, if you want to get a research grant, you can't afford to come and say, 'Well I think this MIGHT be the case BUT there are all sorts of indications here that it MIGHT NOT be the case and it's all sort of confused.' People always tend in science, as elsewhere, to sharpen up and clean up a story... Of course, it's not a fraud, it is part of the general atmosphere in which you're not actually saying to people, tell the truth, tell the whole truth and let it all out." [Leon Kamin of Northeastern University, in "Do Scientists Cheat?", NOVA, Television program #1517 (125 Western Avenue, Boston, Mass. 02134: WGBH Transcripts, Broadcast October 25, 1988), p. 14.]

# "It doesn't take much to take a little bit of the data, change it the way you want it to look and then publish it - and it's impossible to detect that." [Dr. Bruce Dan, Senior Editor of the Journal of the American Medical Association, in "Do Scientists Cheat?", NOVA, Television program #1517 (125 Western Avenue, Boston, Mass. 02134: WGBH Transcripts, Broadcast October 25, 1988), p. 1.]

# "The 1980s have witnessed a flurry of scientific fraud and misconduct cases including a number of cases as yet unresolved." [Narrator, "Do Scientists Cheat?", NOVA, Television program #1517 (125 Western Avenue, Boston, Mass. 02134: WGBH Transcripts, Broadcast October 25, 1988), p. 1.]

# "After the initial inquiry by this committee into this subject [scientific fraud and misconduct in connection with scientific research], the committee has had growing reason to believe that we are only seeing the tip of a very unfortunate, dangerous, and important iceberg." [John Dingell, Chairman of Congressional House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, in "Do Scientists Cheat?", NOVA, Television program #1517 (125 Western Avenue, Boston, Mass. 02134: WGBH Transcripts, Broadcast October 25, 1988), p. 2.]

# "Yet one recent study has alleged science's quality control mechanisms can't even be counted on to catch simple sloppiness, let alone a clever fraud." [Narrator, "Do Scientists Cheat?", NOVA, Television program #1517 (125 Western Avenue, Boston, Mass. 02134: WGBH Transcripts, Broadcast October 25, 1988), p. 10 of transcript.]

Biologist and Creationist John Klotz, Ph.D.:

"It is clear that much of the structure of modern Evolutionary paleontology rests upon assumptions which are by their very nature not capable of verification... There is no disagreement with many of the observations of paleontology, but there may be disagreement with the interpretations which are placed on these observations."

# Michael J. Mahoney, "Self-Deception in Science," paper presented at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (Philadelphia: May 28, 1986), also published in Origins Research, Vol. 11, No. 1 (Colorado Springs, Colorado: Students for Origins Research, Spring 1988), pp. 1-2, 6-7, 10.

# Roger Lewin, Bones of Contention: Controversies in the Search for Human Origins (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1987), 348 pp. (challenges the notion that science is synonymous with cool, objective reasoning / documents the personal side of great controversies in paleoanthropology).

# Daniel Goleman, Vital Lies, Simple Truths: The Psychology of Self-Deception (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1985).

# Jerry Bergman, The Criterion: Religious Discrimination in America (6245 South Newton Avenue, Richfield, Minnesota 55423: Onesimus Publishing, 1984), 80 pp. (discusses evidence of widespread job discrimination against scientists who seriously question Evolution / reviews evidence of lack of academic freedom).

# D. Faust, The Limits of Scientific Judgment (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1984).

# Wolfgang Smith, Cosmos & Transcendence: Breaking Through the Barrier of Scientistic Belief (P.O. Box 424, Rockford, Illinois 61105: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1984), 168 pp. ("Presents an insider's critique of the scientific world-view based upon the sharp but oft-overlooked distinction between scientific truth and scientistic faith... demonstrates that major tenets promulgated in the name of Science are not in fact scientific truths but rather scientistic speculations - for which there is no evidence at all.").

William Broad and Nicholas Wade, Betrayers of the Truth: Fraud and Deceit in the Halls of Science (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1982), 256 pp. (shows that science is often much more than a dispassionate quest for truth / examines the kinds of pressures that can lead scientists to stray / documents cases of scientific fraud / challenges the conventional view of science).

Biologist, geneticist and Creationist John Klotz, Ph.D.:

"It might also be pointed out that scientists are not quite as objective as they say they are. It is simply not possible for the scientist to detach himself completely from the theories and hypotheses which he espouses. This is particularly true when they are different or new. He finds considerable pride of authorship and an intense personal loyalty to ideas which he has developed. For this reason there is a great deal of subjectivity in science."

[John W. Klotz, "Assumptions in Science and Paleontology," in Paul A. Zimmerman, editor, Rock Strata and the Bible Record (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1970), pp. 24-39 (quote from p. 25, emphasis added).]

6

"A Victim of the Delusion"

by scout575 in

"i regard most church leaders however as simply the victims of the christian delusion.

i believe the delusion comandeers the leaders' rational faculties and shields itself from the light of reason.

i regard myself as formerly a victim of the delusion, and i regard you as still a victim of the delusion.

Shining One

"I regard most church leaders however as simply the victims of the Christian delusion. I believe the delusion comandeers the leaders' rational faculties and shields itself from the light of reason. I regard myself as formerly a victim of the delusion, and I regard you as still a victim of the delusion.
If I regarded you as undeluded then I would have animosity toward you for knowingly manipulating people with falsehood. I hope that the impact of the loss of my faith will put a chink in the armour of your delusion, and ultimately liberate you from its repressive control. After the difficult transition period, life really is better this side of Christianity."

1) When and how did this person get to study enough 'christian leaders' to form his opinion? 2) The rest that follows in ill-logical sequence shows clearly they are not thinking rationally. 'Repressive control' then this person must be totally anarchistic because I don't see this practised at all in the churches that I have been in.
What I see is people who are in many ways average, including the so-called leaders. Each and every one of them has faults. Now, when you look at the moral lving encouraged by Jesus you will find that the lessons are intended to make us happier and peaceful toward one another. When you look at the life example of Jesus you see a person humble enough to wash the feet of His disciples, bold enough to challenge the legalists of His day, compassionate enough to do all that He could in this life and courageous enough to take all of the wrath of God for all of our sins.
Sins are simply what we do to hurt others and hurt ourselves. God Himself hung on the cross and took the hit for 'whosoever would believe'. He endured the mocking of others and He endures that even now. It's too bad your own path is so negative and obsessed with your own self-pity. You will find all of that you want in the places that you go.....
Rex

5

Scriptures You Will Not Hear at the 30-07-06 Church Sermon

by scout575 in

"for as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be.

" ( matthew 24:38,39 ).

"and spared not the old world, but saved noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.

Shining One

Again, I have indeed heard sermons on this subject. It falls under the category of 1) Godhood, 2) Divine providence, 3) Judgement: an inherent right when one is GOD, 4) Death: our days are numbered as physical beings in this reality; we are immortal in spirit and will not pass into non-existence. I am not going to try to explain jusgement nor understand it. Anything eternal is beyond comprehension as is much of our physical universe as well.
Rex

7

"Trampled upon by the Juggernaut of Christian Dogma and Guilt."

by scout575 in

"many of them believe that we weren't "genuine" converts, that our profession was somehow narrow and insincere, that we weren't "really saved" and thats why our faith did not persist.

but if my conversion was insincere, then i can't fathom what sincere conversion is.. see if this sounds familiar: i was converted when i came to believe i was a sinner separated from god, who could not pay the debt of my own sin, and that christ had come to die in my place on the cross, to restore me to god.

when the realization of this hit me, it was like i'd been hit in the head by a bolt of lightning.

Shining One

"See if this sounds familiar: I was converted when I came to believe I was a sinner separated from God, who could not pay the debt of my own sin, and that Christ had come to die in my place on the cross, to restore me to God. When the realization of this hit me, it was like I'd been hit in the head by a bolt of lightning. I believed it and accepted it with all my heart, and I asked Jesus that very moment, with every ounce of sincerity in my body, to come into my heart and save me and cleanse me and purify me and sanctify me and keep me from temptation.
At that moment I had the same conversion experience that so many other Christians have had, and that so many cling to so desperately in the final death throes of their faith. It was a genuine transcendant experience. I felt I was in the very loving embrace of God, like a newborn baby in its mother's arms, completely safe, completely secure, not a doubt, not a worry, not a single fear. I wept at the beauty of it all. How much more sincere can one be? Must one weep tears of blood?
And yet, now in the face of the irrationality of this belief system, not even an experience as powerful as this can convince me of its truth. Because, you see, it wasn't long before that pure, loving, wonderful experience was trampled upon by the juggernaut of Christian dogma and guilt."

If this is a true statement and not a troll...let's analyze what he/she is saying. The key is in the third paragraph: "now in the face of the irrationality of the belief system". 1) A conversion can no more be explained than any mystical experience. 2) There is not enough physical evidence to suit this person so they have adopted a materialistic or naturalistic view. 3) They want to 'cross all the t's' and 'dot all of the I's' and explain the mysteries of Christianity. 4) It's also my guess that they have become entangled in a legalistic church of some type. All of the above are traits that we acquire through the Watchtower's conditioning.
When they say 'dogma' that means they do not believe the Bible in the first place. When they say 'guilt' that tells me that they struggle with some sin in their lives that has frustrated them. That's too bad. If they did have a genuine conversion then they will be back in some sort of Chrsitian church. Security is eternal and we are not held by our own hand but God's. When we acquire faith, even that comes from God. We have no special characteristics nor are Christians better than anyone else. We all struggle and in many ways the Christian life is tough to live right, but a true blessing when we see the power of the Christ conquering what we could not.
There are a lot of weird churches out there, there are a lot of false teachers. Most of what we would call Christianity is not that at all. In churches there are an average of 60-70% unconverted. Many have gotten what I call, "fire insurance", which is not a valid conversion at all. A Christian is measured by the fruits that they display as are the unconverted.
Rex

34

Meddling mother

by meems1000 in

i've posted a few times on this site but really just like to read the posts.. i wanted to know if anyone can tell me about a book for teens that the dubs have.

my mother gave it to my 13 year old son and i'm really angry.

i have made it very clear i want nothing to do with those people and do not want my children exposed to it.

Shining One

Hey Meems,
When you take the book, go through it and address the various out of context scripture, show them some of the ways the JW stooges mislead and practice brain washing. Use the thing as a educational opportunity on how to avoid cults and the cult mentality.
Rex